I almost violated one of my own little personal online halacha. I do not post to women's blogs unless they are personal friends of my wife, and I know and am friends with the husband of the woman in question. I almost couldn't help it though, the title stood out to me. "Too Much Torah?"
I was intrigued. What could this possibly be about? She was referring to another BLOG she had been reading that asked the question "do we talk too much about the Torah and the commandments?" I wanted to respond to the BLOG right their and then with a resounding NO. Too much Torah? That's like saying "I have too much money", or "there is too much cheese on this pizza". Such a thing is simply not possible.
I even went so far as to read the responses to her post. I came to realise something from reading the responses. This is something that should have been obvious, but sometimes I miss the obvious. Not everyone has the same definition of Torah. I know, right. You see the definition of Torah that was handed down to me from the first Rabbi that showed me the path of Torah observance (Rabbi Ralph Messer) is far more complex then just the first five books of the OT.
What is the Torah? The simple answer is "teachings and instructions". It is often compared to a loving father teaching his son, in order that he grows to be a good man (and just like this metaphor the Father will often spank his son for not heading his teachings and instructions, no son likes being spanked, and most fathers don't enjoy doing the spanking, but it is often necessary). So then what exactly is the Torah? Is it just the Pentateuch? Is it the whole of the Tanach? Does it include the Gospels? How about the whole of the Brit Chadishah? Are the oral traditions passed down by the sages encompassed in this concept? Well for most of my readers the first four questions would be an easy yes. That last question can be a little tricky though can't it?
Does the Oral Torah fit within the concept of Torah as I have defined it? Are they the most highs teachings and instructions to his children? Well let us hear from the master himself on the matter. "Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples, Saying, 'The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, [that] observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.'" The modern rabbinic tradition is based on, and is the result of the teachings of these very scribes and pharisees. Does that mean we just go along with the teachings and traditions of the local chabad? (not knocking them by the way, their is a wealth of information in the Chabad movement. One would be a fool to throw away such jewels). You know Hashem would never let you off the hook that easy.
Again from the master, "But he answered and said unto them, 'Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition.'" OK, so what does this tell us? If there is a tradition that goes against the instructions of the Torah then we are to discard it. Is there anything else? Well if you continue on for the rest of the scripture I quoted in the previous paragraph Yeshua goes on to berate the scribes and Pharisees for following the minutia of the Torah without working out the spirit of the Law, what the master calls "the weightier [matters] of the law (Torah), judgment, mercy, and faith." When the oral law is used to separate the people of the Most High, or is used as an excuse to ignore injustice, or to keep from having to do a kindness for someone who is in need, then that tradition needs to be set aside.
As to the original question of how much Torah talk is too much, read the psalms to discover how much David, a man after Hashems own heart felt about the Torah. Or take the advice of Joshua the leader of all of Israel after the death of Moses, "This book of the Torah shall not leave your mouth; you shall meditate therein day and night."
One more point that I feel is important enough to continue on with the subject that I have already gone on waaayyyy too long about. Gentiles. We as followers of Yeshua do not have to follow the Torah...(pause for emphasis, and gasps from the messianic audience)... we get to. Why would I deny someone giving me a free gift that would lead to blessings in my life and the life's of my whole family. However, salvation does not come from our own actions, it is a free gift from the father through the son. Obeying Torah doesn't make you "more saved" or even "saved for real". It is simply a way to say I acknowledge that I am now part of the family to, and I want to make my Dad proud. You know I was proud of all of my children when they took their first steps. They didn't do it very well, and they fell more then they walked, but I was proud all the same. Think about that.
For more on this subject I highly recommend the following
http://ffoz.org/blogs/2009/10/torah_does_not_mean_law.html
http://ffoz.org/blogs/2009/09/an_unbearable_yoke_acts_1510.html
http://ffoz.org/blogs/2009/09/one_simple_verse.html
some food for thought.
Rabbi Simeon (ben Jochai) said:
"When three eat at one table and words of Torah are not spoken there, it is as if they ate at the altars of the dead, as it is said: "For all their tables are full of vomit and waste, there is no God" (Heb: maqom; lit: "place"). (Isa 28:8). But when three eat at one table and bring up words of Torah, it is as if they ate from the table of God (maqom), blessed be He!, as it is said: "And he said to me: This is the table that is before the LORD' (Ezek 41:22)."
Be blessed, Go study.
I hope you don't mind if I comment from time to time. I have enjoyed reading your blog so far. I am not messianic, I am Mormon. I find your beliefs interesting and more similar to my own than any other religion I have had contact with. Thanks for sharing your perspective. Now to actually comment on your post.
ReplyDeleteFirst, I am glad that you expounded on that verse about scribes and Pharisees. You mentioned it once before and I wondered if you were quoting it out of context. Although I interpret that passage differently, I feel I have a clearer picture of your interpretation.
As to the question of "too much Torah" I think that is the wrong perspective. It isn't what you know but what you do with it. One of my favorite quotes is "To know is not enough. One must do." If we have a map, study it, talk about it, show it to others but never go anywhere then what good is it?
I
Amy,
ReplyDeletePlease feel free to respond whenever you would like.
I completely agree with you with reguards to focusing on the doing of the word. If you were to happen by my house on any given Friday, or to accompony my wife and five children on a shoppping trip, you would see that every aspect of our lives is involved in some way or other with the carrying out of the words of the most high. From the way we work to the way we eat and how we ware our clothes, all of it is in some way invested with our desire to "do" the word of Hashem.
The commitment we have to studying the word is just another aspect of that desire. Over and over the scriptures demand of us that we study it. We study it in order that we might be able to do it better.
Be Blessed
Shalom, Mr. Blacksheep. I think I know who you are and I am commenting with that in mind. I pray you are well and blessed and return home safely SOON! :)
ReplyDeleteIt's not that I EVER take a contrasting opinion (ha!) but I thought I would offer these two points:
1) Yes, I think we CAN have too much Torah. If we make Torah the point and the end of our conversations then we have missed the mark.
The point of Torah is NOT Torah.
The point of Torah is Messiah.
Torah < the Word. The Word contains the Torah not vice versa. Yes, yes, yes... I know that Torah means "instruction" and all of G-d's word is provided for our instruction (2 Tim 3:16) but the general use of "Torah" refers to the Law of Moses.
Many folks (Jews and Messianics alike) try to make Torah the point but it is NOT the point. Messiah is the goal of the Torah (Romans 10:4) and we should never lose sight of that ultimate goal:
Therefore, since we have so great a cloud of witnesses surrounding us, let us also lay aside every encumbrance and the sin which so easily entangles us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, FIXING OUR EYES ON YESHUA, THE AUTHOR AND PERFECTER OF FAITH, who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. (Hebrews 12:1-2 emphasis mine)
I pray that your family and mine will continue to grow in our Torah observance but I believe the goal that we should have in mind is to be conformed to the image of Messiah not to be conformed to the image of Judaism.
As you pointed out, David HaMelek wrote lovingly of G-d's Torah. I believe it is because he, like Abraham, rejoiced to see Messiah's day. Messiah's face was veiled to David so all he could do is speak of the Kingdom that was revealed to him (and to us!) in the Torah.
2) "We as followers of Yeshua do not have to follow the Torah... we get to."
The "we get to" phrasing leaves an impression that we have no responsibility to obey the commands of the King. That phrasing suggests the commandments are somehow optional. I reject that entirely. They are commandments not suggestions.
In the sense that we are privileged to be in the Kingdom and "we get to" live accordingly, yes, I agree. I rejoice greatly (and again I say rejoice!) at having been chosen for the kingdom (for many are called but few are chosen- Matt 22:14). In that regard we have an inestimable privilege to "get to" live the commandments.
Each and every member of the Kingdom has a responsibility to obey the commandments THAT ARE RELEVANT TO HIM/HER. As a gentile, I have no responsibility to obey the commandments given to the Levites. As a man, I have no responsibility to obey the commandments given to women. In that sense there is one Torah for all but not every part of the Torah applies to every person.
Shalom and blessings, sir. I look forward to our next discussion! :)
BRADY, it is so good to hear from you. I hope to see you sometime during Passover.Yay, I get to midrash with Brady
ReplyDelete1) I completely agree with you about the point of the Torah being Messiah. There are levels of study, and though it is good and even necessary to study out the hinted (Remez), or even secret(Sud) levels of scripture that point to the Messiah in the Torah, it is also important to be mindful of the simple face value (Pshat) of the text (Yes I'm showing off a little).
As to conforming to the image of the Messiah, he was Jewish. He conformed not only to the commands of the most high in the Torah, but also to the traditions that defined Judaism at that time. Moreover, there was no distinction between the written and oral commands in the minds of the Jewish people.
At the time when 2 TIM was written there was only the Tanakh, there was no other “word” for him to be referring to. I am not saying that the BH is not the word of G-d, but I am saying that taken in context Paul is talking about the Torah when he says “All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness; That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.” Do you see the link there, between mitzvot and the word to which Paul is referring?
Whereas, I do agree that many people, simply play the “I can look more Jewish than you” game, this is not a result of "too much Torah". It is an act of religious one-upmanship.
John describes the Messiah as the "word (Torah) made flesh". Just as Yeshua is G-d in the flesh, the Torah is Yeshua written down. The concept of love in Jewish thinking involves a continual learning about the person. This is why in their concept of marriage a man should love his wife more every day then he did the day before, because every day he learns more about her. So learning about the master through study of the Torah grows us lovingly closer to him
You quoted HEB 12:1-2. It is a good point you are making. We should fix our eyes on Yeshua, but a closer look shows that first in the text is laying aside every encumbrance and sin. How do we know what sin is. We learn what sin is by the studying Torah. "What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law."
2) I must humbly disagree with you. The conclusion that you have come to as far as the Torah being obligatory to all believers is, I believe unfounded in scripture. We love to point out that the Pharisees that believed were talking about circumcision and becoming a “real Jew” to obtain salvation when the Jerusalem Counsel gave the four things a gentile must do, and that they must also continue to study in the synagogue. (Acts 15:20) But there were 2 things that were brought up at that meeting. "But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, that it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the Law of Moses.
ReplyDeleteSo adherence to the commands of the Torah, and not just conversion was the topic of discussion and the disciples of the time said “my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God”. Later Paul tells the Colossians “Let no man judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the Sabbath” We can do the verbal gymnastics to say that what he was really saying was don’t let the Jews tell you not to do these things, however an honest, simple reading of the verse in context shows that this is not the case.
Why then would anyone want to engage in the Torah at all if it’s not obligatory? Doing them out of obligation puts them right back on the tablets of stone that the most high worked so hard to get them off of. The Torah should be in our hearts. You know that was my one point of contention with FFoZ. I was taught by my first Torah teacher that I was under no legal obligation to do the Torah, but that I now had the freedom to learn and do the Torah without the curse hanging over my head for not doing it correctly. Now I can learn as I go, and if I accidently bring strange fire I don’t get struck down.
Wow, this went on a lot longer then I intended. Brady be blessed and I cant wait to see you guys in a few short weeks.
For anyone else following along: When we engage in midrash to hammer out points of the Torah, it should not be with an eye towards being the victor of the argument. That is very Greek thinking. We should have a desire to engage in midrash to deepen our understanding. You really don't know what you know until you have to defend the point you’re trying to make. And at the end of the day we still should be able to walk away amiably and go get a bagel.
Shabbat Shalom, Mr Blacksheep! :)
ReplyDeleteBefore I continue our discussion I must concur 100% with your point regard midrash: the point is seeking out truth... not winning an argument. A wise man (David B) once said "The point of asking questions is not always to get the answer, it is to discover what the other questions are."
Let us continue...
1a) Regarding the oral Torah, consider Ezekiel 20:1-26. What are the statutes that were "not good" and the "ordinances by which they could not live"? That cannot refer to the *written* Torah for G-d said the written Torah is good and that it is life.
1b) As far as Scripture only being the Tanakh at that time: Peter apparently did not think so. In his second epistle, Peter mentions that in Paul's writings there are some things that are hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort AS THEY DO ALSO THE *REST* OF THE SCRIPTURES. (2 Peter 3:16, emphasis mine).
Both 2 Peter and 2 Timothy were writting in 67 CE. In the minds of the early believers the Gospels and the writings of the Apostles (mostly written in the 50s and 60s) were considered to be Scripture. During the time of Messiah's life, however, there was only the Tanakh... I agree.
2a) I find it interesting that you went to Acts 15 in your reply because Acts 15 begins with this:
ReplyDeleteSome men came down from Judea and began teaching the brethren, "Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, YOU CANNOT BE SAVED." (Acts 15:1, emphasis mine)
The focus of Acts 15 and the point of the entire book of Galatians is correcting the "salvation by works" error.
There were some among the Pharisees teaching that a Gentile had to be circumcized and take on the whole yoke of Torah (Acts 15:5) in order to be saved. Their mindset: "all Jews have a place in the world to come; Gentiles do not". It was their biological heritage that "saved" them. John rejected this concept in Matt 3:8-9 and Luke 3:8.
The Pharisees' requirements for the Gentiles were:
- become Jewish [physical circumcision]
- and go do Torah
and *THEN* you will have a place in the world to come.
The Scriptural requirements for the Gentiles is:
- G-d has made you a part of Israel by faith [spiritual circumcision]
- you have a place in the world to come
and *THEN* go do Torah.
Paul tells us in Ephesians 2:11-16 that, in Messiah, we Gentiles are
- no longer separate from Messiah
- no longer excluded from the commonwealth of Israel,
- no longer strangers to the covenants [plural!] of promise
- no longer without hope
- no longer without G-d.
Messiah made both groups (Jew and Gentile) into one new group: the Israel of G-d, His bride made spotless and new once more and prepared for the wedding supper of the Lamb. Although some teach Israel is the "bride of Jehovah" [their name not mine!] and the Church is the "bride of Messiah", there is truly only one bride for there is only one G-d! And there is only one Torah given to His bride.
Back to Acts 15:
What the elders of Jersalem were establishing was a minimum set of requirements to enable table fellowship between Jews and Gentiles.
If the apostles were giving the Gentiles a set of "Gentile commandments" separate from the requirements of Torah then they left quite a few important ones out: do not steal, do not commit murder, honor your father and mother, do not bear false witness, etc. These are good commandments. Are they only for the Jews? Wouldn't we bring dishonor to Messiah's name if we went out stealing, lying, and murdering? Aren't these commands for Gentiles, as well?
2b) The commandments "written on tablets of stone" is the Old Covenant. They were unable to change a person's heart and conform him to the image of Messiah.
The New Covenant, however, occurs when G-d gives us a new heart (Ezekiel 36:26) and writes those same commandments upon it (Jeremiah 31:33).
Same great commandments- new writing surface.
2c) Aha! I think we have hit upon the key misunderstanding in our discussion!
I *completely* agree that we are free to perform the commandments without the threat of the curse hanging over our heads. Messiah took that hit for each of us.
The "obligation" of Torah obedience for believers does not come from the thought that "G-d will strike me dead/strike me with a curse/put me in hell" if I don't do these.
The "obligation" of Torah obedience comes from the thought that "Although I did not in any way deserve it, G-d had mercy upon me, gave me the faith to believe and be saved, and gave me new life in the Messiah. I desire to honor Him and obey His commandments out of love for Who He Is and what He has done in me." It is the nature of the new man I now am.
Messiah said: If you love Me, you will keep My commandments. (John 14:15)
He phrased it the same way as we might say "if I drop a ball, it will fall." It is a statement of certainty rather than an invitation.
If there is a different forum in which you would like to conduct these types of discussions, please let me know! I don't want to clutter up your blog. :)
Blessings, sir!
Blacksheep - Just wanted to say I appreciated this article, and say thanks for the link to my site.
ReplyDeleteblessings,
-darren
Ah yes, there is the disconnect.
ReplyDeleteWe should feel an obligation to do the Torah.
In some Christian circles this is seen as some ambiguous "doing the will of G-d" sense, but the desire is the same. I want to make Abba happy with what I do.
These commands are there for our safety and well being. It is like the commands with regards to how to approach the tabernacle. It is not that G-d would be angry and smite whoever hadn’t washed correctly and wore the right clothing. He is simply put dangerous to be around in our fallen state.
The Torah has more to do with the proper conduct of a people on this world then the rule book for how to get to heaven. That is a free gift with no strings attached.